So this is a sensitive one for me. I know a lot of people that get paid to be in the ministry…..I really don’t have any issue with that. I think what bugs me is this arbitrary “ministry for cash” program that I see more and more. I have people in my life that “are called to minister” in this way way or that way. However, when a better opportunity….er…I mean….a “new calling” happens (with cash $$$$$ attached) all of a sudden their focus changes, all of a sudden the ministry with the perks seems to be the one God calls them to. I’m seeing it more and more lately.
Why does God’s calling become so clear when there is a paycheck attached?
Would one follow that same calling for free instead?
Or would one’s passion for that ministry dry up if the ministry could no longer afford the paycheck?
What makes this difficult is that we are in tough economic times. There is nothing wrong with people in ministry getting paid or having their costs covered, the question is would you still be committed if you in fact lost money being part of it? Sometimes, we turn the money attached to a ministry as the primary signal of God’s calling. The monetary payday was rarely the promise to those that were called by God in scripture.
So this post is for the sake of conversation. This isn’t an admonishment of those that get paid by a ministry. What I want is to discuss is the purity of God’s call and how we know when we are being called. I think it is a good conversation to have.
DanO
Well…this one is def. for me. I left the college group at NP where i was a small group leader to be a paid part-time worship pastor at a new church plant. I still wrestle with the decision. Hopefully i’m not the only one. God bless.
Dave
I do think money can confuse things. I took a position in Texas as a worship leader that paid a $50 per week stipend. I was living there because my boyfriend was there. Money was tight and when they offered it to me I felt like I couldn’t refuse. My thinking was, “If I’m strapped for cash and now I’m being offered a PAID ministry opportunity then this must be God’s way of providing for me and showing me this is where I’m supposed to be.” Two years later I left and moved here because God showed me that I really didn’t belong in ministry in that capacity – I had a sense that I was holding that ministry back because of my own limitations.
To this day I really can’t answer if I was supposed to take that job or not – I wasn’t the best person for it but I learned a lot.
I think it’s tough to really know where God is calling you – if you’re like me it’s similar to wandering around in a dark room looking for something. I bump into stuff, I try this place and that and I pretty much never find the light switch that will illuminate the room and make the search easier. Sometimes I run into what I’m looking for – sometimes I stub my toe. But if I didn’t try something I would just be standing there. The problem for me is when I find the wrong thing I need to be able to let go of it. I felt a long time before I left Texas that it wasn’t where I was meant to be but I wanted it and selfishly clung to it and to the money – because I was scared.
I read this verse one morning, ” Therefore I am now going to allure her. I will lead her into the desert and speak to her heart.” Hosea 2:14
God really spoke to me through it and I decided that I was being called elsewhere. I quit my job and my ministry and moved to Phoenix to sleep on my sister’s couch and look for work. 3 years later I have my own couch, and a good paying job but I’m no longer in ministry. I’ve been waiting for God to speak to my heart but I have to be honest – it’s been a desert experience both literally and figuratively to live here. I’ve found that sometimes when God calls you somewhere you don’t get to know why – for a while.
I think this is something we all struggle with. I’m not sure why it is. I don’t think God is trying to be confusing, so it must be our listening. Thanks for both your posts and honesty.
DanO
Dan,
Your observations caught me completely off guard. Your questions and observations are very well taken, however; as we begin to chisel out our vocation the underlining subject is; what is the church willing to pay? Comical in a twisted way, the most trusted with our education, spiritual guidance; and community service gets crumbs for servitude. So I’ll be the first to say this…shame on the churches and community leaders not providing a reasonable salary.
So, what is the most important to you? Once you have made up your mind means that you no longer can complain about the conditional pay. For example, if the church offers you so much before you accept it you have to do some soul searching because once you have agreed then you have no latitude to complain, only leave. Once you have given thought of leaving, leave; you heart has already changed.
In closing, and again; I’m ashamed of corporate churches you won’t pay a reasonable amount and use the zealousness of a young person as an advantage in pay. I’m ashamed that corporate churches send people all over the world to save their lost souls but don’t clean up our own back yard first. I’m ashamed that I have taken advantage of my invested donations to get larger tax breaks. I’m more ashamed that corporate churches as more worried about putting on the big top shows each Sunday than thinking, Small is the New Big. Please forgive me as I consider my relationship to the corporate church which I belong to.
Also, I am not anonymous in this entry…I am not a coward.
Michael Beaver
7
While not on the topic of Calling, but on money and ministry:
This first thing that came to mind when I began reading this post was a comment Scott made a few weeks back at Crash when he was talking about financial debt. His comment was in reference to giving, but I think it’s somewhat related.
I don’t earn a paycheck from being in ministry. However, I experienced an unanticipated job and salary change which influenced my Giving to ministry (or decrease in giving, as it were).
It was mentioned that when we’re not giving to ministry, it ultimately comes down us not fully trusting God. This is something that I’ve really struggled with this over the past year and half. I’ll look at my bank account and think, “I can’t afford to tithe from this paycheck!” But I’ve had those thoughts before and tithed anyway. Much to my surprise, the sky didn’t fall. Sometimes it’s simply been miraculous how all the bills managed to be paid.
But dang, it’s hard to trust.
God provides.
Thank you all for being very honest and forthcoming in your responses. I think that the more honest and open we are about these struggles the more we grow as a community of character and grace.
@ Mr Beaver – Thank you for your activity with this blog and your views that help push and stretch the common.
I don’t draw a paycheck from a church so I can’t speak as an employee or an expert but, I think that the “big churches” usually try their best to accommodate many types of jobs. I know that many churches have very bloated staffing because they actually run a semi “jobs program” in their communities. They are often less efficient but provide income for people that otherwise may not be able to find a job. There is no doubt that some “big churches” are ruthless and cut-throat to maximize efficiency and feel that they need to run the church like an institutional organization. Evidence by the Barna Group would suggest that those institutions will implode in the coming years….so I don’t worry about it.
I am excited by this growing community of honest, character driven people that are emerging at CRASH. Thanks for your participation!!
DanO
I know that i wrestled and fought with the idea that i didn’t want to be viewed as a guy who left a position only to go to another one that offered money. I especially didn’t want to look that way to my good friends whom i serve with in ministry here at CRASH. Ultimately, my passion for worship and music and where i believed God wanted me in those areas drove my decision making…but it doesn’t make it any easier knowing that the place where i was serving was left with a void. I’m just so glad that i get to serve with people like we have at CRASH who do things simply out of their love for service to Christ.
One of the questions I most often get as a pastor is how do you know what’s God’s will is, how do you know it is God speaking and not your own will. It’s a universal concern and struggle.
I think money and finances always complicates and muddies the water. I think it is important that we continue to allow others into our lives as a part of our community of discernment to make sure that we are not posturing and over-spiritualizing our “call” when our real genuine concern is the resources issue.
Danny’s blog challenged me to reflect, Dave’s honesty provoked me to ask hard questions, and Michael’s commitment to contrarian positions always push me to places where I need to confess and repent. (all of this is why I waited several days to post a comment)
I came home Easter Sunday night and told my wife, “Dani, I love our community at Crash because I am continually reminded of how I have not made it and still have room to grow. Yet, people still love me and meet where I am with grace and compassion.” I hope this blog post and future ones are a place where with challenge each other with hard questions and brutal honesty in one hand, and compassionate mercy in the other as none of us have “made it” and still have much room for growth. Thanks for making this the most commented post so far!
I have been challenged and intrigued by this conversation. I sit in such an unusual position in the midst of the conversation I cannot call it normal, or even close to an occasional situation. As a paid staff minister I have had many conversations with my husband regarding this very topic. He always brings the conversation back to the fact that Paul was a tent-maker, and I, the culture in which he ministered was completely foreign to ours. Regardless the facts in my case remain the same. Do I need the $$$ – no. Do I want the $$$ – not really. Do I think it brings validity to my input that I am paid vs. if I was a volunteer – sometimes. Would I readily give up my salary so those who I serve alongside would not have to during economic downturns – absolutely.
Discerning God’s call upon one’s life is not as easy as some make it out to be. My unexpected call into ministry was very clear and affirmed in several different ways. Only once since then have I had a distinct and clear understanding of the path God desired for me to choose. The rest has been a process in which faith has been the foundational element. The wrestling God allows us to experience in determining which choices to make in our journey is His way of bringing us to a state of reliance upon Him for provision of our every need. Unfortunately, we are human and the filters through which we make decisions vary depending upon our experiences and needs. Do I think that churches have been amiss in the compensation of those God has called to minister – some – however, on the whole, I would hold God’s people responsible for this, for we make up the Body of Christ.
All in all, I believe it is a heart issue on all accounts. I think it boils down to is this, “What is my motivation for serving?” If is for $$$ no church or institution can pay enough – if it out of stewardship of the gifts and call God has placed upon one’s life, monetary compensation is secondary to the abundant blessings God pours out upon His servants.
Ann
I think this is a great conversation.
I think God can call someone to a volunteer position in a ministry but He can also call someone to a paid position. The unpaid position is not the more virtuous one by default. Leaving an unpaid position for a paid one isn’t always in opposition to God’s will. It does come down to how we individually discern God’s will – it’s something I wish would be addressed more in teachings and sermons and small groups. There are rules to discernment and they require practice to be really good at it.
As for Ann’s comment – I agree that as a paid minister I did feel that I had more of a voice. It gave me firm ground to stand on – I wasn’t just some volunteer who could walk away. Why is that case? Is that something that church leaders need to look at – how they view lay people working in their community.
Good Morning,
This is my last entry on this subject but the greater part of me needs to put closure and clarification on some of my past entries. I forgotten careful rules that my father once gave me. Three things that can never be back once given. The word written, the word spoken, and accepting Christ; interesting enough I struggle with all three. The last interweaves with my greatest struggle which I’m still coming full circle with.
Without secondary questioning I owe each and every one of you an apology for some of my past entries. Is my personality merging with my Christian beliefs? I’m not sure, but more importantly I never want any of my extrinsic observations as a reason for anyone to stop or change their belief in God.
Amy Strock made a very validate point, “it ultimately comes down us not fully trusting God.” Is the jury still or are we fully trusting in God?” Will God forgive me in the end if I don’t, or will he write it off as he tried his best? I hope so. But what is our best? This soaked in so deeply that Friday I called a dear friend to talk about just this subject, “fully trusting.” Merging in quickly to Scott’s statement, “Michael’s commitment to contrarian positions always push me to places where I need to confess and repent.” And again I ask for forgiveness. It isn’t my intent to push someone into the darken corners.
Some of you don’t know, but for many years I was a volunteer at North Phoenix Baptist Church and not once did money become part of the equation of my services…just the end result. The greater difference from then to now is I am a Christian under construction and was not a Christian when I was a volunteer.
Michael Beaver
7
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Please consider the Apostle Paul. He worked with his own hands to continue his ministry and there were times when there was no support except what he made on his own. There were other times when “the Church body” kept his ministry going. The important thing is that he knew what his calling was. He was certain of his task, there was no doubt. So it didn’t matter to him who paid to keep it going.